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User talk:Mountaintimber
Welcome Mountaintimber }! OnePieceNation (talk) 09:12, October 6, 2014 (UTC) There's a lot to do around here, so I hope you'll stay with us and make many more improvements. For questions, please contact an Administrator. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! OnePieceNation (talk) 09:12, October 6, 2014 (UTC) ' • Badges • Images • Copyrights • Vandalism' |} Neferpitou Since the two of you are pretty new here and probably very inexperienced editors I wil be lenient to the both of you and only give you this small warning WE DO NOT ALLOW EDIT WARS HERE. And you can be banned from this wiki for starting or being invovled in one. I have now locked Pitou's page and I will look over it tomorrow and make edits where I see fit after which it probably won't be unlocked for a long time. OnePieceNation (talk) 09:05, March 30, 2015 (UTC) I'm sorry about this matter, I contacted OPN to tell him that you did not participate in any edit war. Please, do not take it personally, the wiki in in dire need of skillful contributors like you. Martialmaniac (talk) 09:42, March 30, 2015 (UTC) All I reacted on was the going back and forth between edits of four users, not the contents of those edits since I don't have the time today to busy myself with that. If you where indeed not part of the edit war I apologize and I hope you will continue to be a part of this wiki. OnePieceNation (talk) 10:08, March 30, 2015 (UTC) I'll try, but could you also tell me your opinion? Now, I need to make a premise: I have no concrete evidence, and I'm not entirely sure, either; that is why I am ok with leaving Neferpitou's sex unknown. First, Togashi has a history of causing confusion about the gender of his characters. However, every time it has happened, the characters were confirmed to be male: since he himself described Neferpitou employing a mainly masculine pronoun (kare), and Neferpitou did the same (boku), I assumed the CA was male, also considering that those pronouns are not exactly as commonly used by women as the article suggests. Of course, neither of these adfirmations can be considered proof, they merely serve to explain my personal view on a matter that can be only faced with agnosticism. Moreover, Neferpitou's supposed female anatomy is not as evident as in other female Chimera Ants; besides, Neferpitou has human, insect and feline genes, so I don't think their bodyis shaped just like a human's. One thing I am firmly convinced of is that the author aims at creating confusion regarding the gender of his characters, like Alluka, so he gives only small, ambiguous bits of information. On the other hand, the anime depicts Neferpitou with a more prominent bust that cannot be justified by angular perspective: either the animators chose to ignore the ambiguity, or they preferred to avoid it. Anyway, even if Neferpitou was revealed to be a woman, I would not bee too surprised. I hope this is clear, I don't have much time and English is not my first language. Now, if I may ask, why did you choose to contribute to this wiki? Martialmaniac (talk) 09:00, March 31, 2015 (UTC) You know nothing more than we do, and the only words that really count are the author's. Since there is no confirmation, ambiguity seems a good solution. Martialmaniac (talk) 20:54, March 31, 2015 (UTC) I'm sorry if I called you biased, but calling my mindset stupid is the same as not too different from calling a person stupid, and it irritated me. I don't really believe Togashi consistently tipped the scales in any direction, I'm actually more inclined to believe he really wants Neferpitou's gender to never be understood. The hints he gave were merely metaphoric. However, I still don't understand how you can say that the only document in which the author has clearly expressed himself on this matter, should not be considered canon. It's not like he invents the story every time he writes a new chapter, in theory, it has all been planned in advance. Besides, Kurapika and Kalluto have both been mistaken for girls by other characters, so some of Neferpitou's interlocutors might have done the same. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Neferpitou is considered male in the official English translation of the manga. Plus, it is true that the script is the same, but in the script Neferpitou's gender in unclear, so they chose in Togashi's place. It is not too far fetched to assume that Neferpitou's ambiguity was considered too prominent for a shounen (careful, this is mere speculation). I can agree that Togashi created such a problematic character on purpose, but my view on the matter does not change: rather, by stretching things out, I have gotten more convinced that Neferpitou is male in the manga. You say that the only difference in Neferpitou's design in the anime is the bust: I think it is evidence that Madhouse has realized the issue and has intervened to solve it. The problem could be easily solved if we had an active Japanese speaking contributor, but, alas, I don't think there are many. Martialmaniac (talk) 08:18, April 1, 2015 (UTC) I'm sorry, I only saw your last message. I'll read the other as soon as I can. Martialmaniac (talk) 08:20, April 1, 2015 (UTC) I feel I need to specify one thing: it's not that I deem the gender matter more important than any other discussions on the wiki; simply, it is the one that always raises more clamor, and I like to express my view and, if I believe I am correct, defend it and make it apply. Don't start thinking that I relish in contrasts, because I have a strong need for approval, so if I defend my ideas, it is not out of stubborness, but because I think they are valid. As I said, the mother was metaphorical: in the animal world, it is usually the female parent that guards the cubs. Same for the Virgin Mary depiction: out of the three guards, whatever Neferpitou's gender may be, he is still the most suited to take that role. I can understand it almost sounds like a compromise to assume that Neferpitou is male in the manga and female in the anime, but I can assure you that's not how I see it. Why does it bother you so much? Regarding the pronouns, "boku" was also used by Kalluto, who was confirmed to be male. I think it is the author's way of creating confusio, yet also dropping a hint. My view on the Alluka matter has partially changed: while he is anatomically male (Killua called him "ototou" when he was sleeping), he uses feminine pronouns whenever he talks about Nanika's powers (he said he needed his sister's powers to Silva), and Nanika is definitely female. Has Alluka ever used that pronoun, or was it just Nanika? Besides, you said so yourself: even "atashi" can have a double meaning, and Alluka is undeniably effeminate, though I don't believe it is evidence enough to call him a transgender. However, if you consider "atashi" definite proof, you should also consider "boku" in its most literal meaning. Don't get me wrong, f it is really proven that even Alluka considers himself a girl, then he would agree he must be referred to as such (although I seem to recall Togashi used a masculine pronoun to introduce him, but whatever). Personally, I haven't reached a definite conclusion on the usage of pronouns in official or informative articles regarding transgender people. The debate on Alluka has given me the chance to start thinking about it. Even if I were against it, though, I'd bend to the rules of the wiki. This is the point you seem to misunderstand: even if we believe we have strong indications in a certain direction, ultimately it is the author's word that matters. Unless we can prove beyond reasonable doubt that he is contradicting himself, as a wiki, we have to stick to what he has said. Martialmaniac (talk) 09:13, April 1, 2015 (UTC) I'll be honest and admit I have not read all of your arguments in detail, but enough to know they are very well expressed. I was afraid that if I read them fully, I might have tried to oppose you again, and I don't want to do it. The reason is that this whole gender matter, be it Alluka or Neferpitou, is becoming too much of a burden. To me, it was just about being accurate; to many others (I don't mean you, but the many others who threw a tantrum on my page or Alluka's) it was more about getting a ridiculous victory that supposedly demonstrated acceptance. I also got particularly heated up because, if on the one hand I can empathize with the ones who want Alluka to be a transgender kid, on the other I don't like people judging facts to make them suit their desires. We've had dozens of contributors who have come only to express their opinion on Alluka more or less politely, and who have never done anything else for this wiki ever since. Since I get stressed very easily, and coming to this wiki risked becoming a hassle rather than a pleasure, I chose to stop worrying about this matter, as I believe both sides have, all in all, valid points. The fact that OPN has recently written a blog post about Neferpitou has also greatly influenced me. You should intervene there with the clarity you have used with me. Also considering there are some contributors who share your views, but their irritating attitudes may biase the discussion or leave prevent them from being taken seriously. I'll be ok with whatever it is decided. It has just become to vexing to withstand. I am sorry I interrupt the discussion like this, also considering you are the one who has come up with the most solid arguments (and I feel you are not among the ones who insist Neferpitou is female because they find him/her hot) but, keeping into account the past experiences, it is too much. Even if I might still harbour some doubts, I'm absolutely ok with you "winning". Martialmaniac (talk) 09:32, April 3, 2015 (UTC) Ok, that was a poor choice of word, I'm sorry. And thank you. Do you, by any chance, own the English manga? I'd like to add a few quotes to the pages of Machi and Biscuit. Martialmaniac (talk) 09:13, April 4, 2015 (UTC) Hunter x Hunter english translation Can you tell me or at the least leave me a link where the english translator said it was just her opinion, because at the moment I have no reason to believe what you are saying, nor can I find anything on google to support your statement. I won't have another edit war happen since it got everyone in trouble last time, but this also happens to be one of the rare occasions where martial also happens to agree with me. So please, give us(or just me) the courtesy. And saying the english translation has no relevance to cannon is almost entirely false, because unless you happen to speak japanese(which I cannot and have no recollection of you saying you did), you are forced to believe and receive the english translation as canon, since you'd have no idea what the japanese version said. Pigzillion (talk) 02:23, April 14, 2015 (UTC) (forgot to sign again -_-) Thank you, because(other than the title to that new section that almost made me punch the goddamn screen) you didn't sound to conceding at all. Very educational actually. Sorry if I sounded "ignorant" as you put it(though it's not exactly as I would describe it), but since pretty much every new gender argument I put in that section got taken out, I don't exactly like people doing it without reason and or evidence, which I'm glad you did the courtesy of giving since apparently I'm not very good at finding myself. Seriously though, please change that title. It's pissing me off just thinking about it. Pigzillion (talk) 02:23, April 14, 2015 (UTC) Glad you're not as rude as I imagined you to me(and I mean that as a compliment). As far as refering to the english translation in the Pitou page, I suppose I could put something in like "While some may question the legitimacy of the english translation, it is still important to note that the english version of the manga clearly refers to Pitou as "he" and "him", Lillian Olsen(the translator in question) stating that it was more a case of personal opinion than fact" Pigzillion (talk) 20:48, April 21, 2015 (UTC) So I'm just a kid on the internet?Pigzillion (talk) 15:56, April 23, 2015 (UTC) Really!? How old are you then?Pigzillion (talk) 20:40, April 23, 2015 (UTC) Japanese scans Since some users (on "my side") were turning kind on uncivilized, I thought I'd write my opinion, but you said you wouldn't bother speaking again, so I have to leave you this notice, hope it does not irritate you. While I don't believe we shouldn't give credit to what Togashi, the one who keeps (kept) the series going, says ever again because of some minor retcons/mistakes dating back to 2006, way before Alluka was even introduced, if you can prove that in Chapter 330 Alluka really says "I'm a good girl", that would be a lot of help. To do that, we need the original Japanese scan, not the English translation, official or not, for the same reason we keep the pages on Riakke, Grachan and Golem gender-neutral. I thought to ask you if you knew where to find it, since you often quote the pronouns used in the manga. EDIT: I'm sorry, I read that chapter and watched that episode again: the one who says "a good girl" is clarified to be Nanika shortly after, not Alluka: Killua explains that the one to call him by name is Nanika, and when he says "Nanika", she replies, despite not having black eyes. I did not delete the rest of the message not to be confusing, I should have checked before. However, if you can find similar proof in any other page of the Japanese manga, I'd be very happy to help you close this case. Martialmaniac (talk) 23:03, August 19, 2015 (UTC) Of course I am interested, partly due to so much fuss having been made, I just want to find the solution to quiet this mess. To make a good Gender Ambiguity section, we'd need solid references in both cases, and in general it would be good to see in what instances Alluka has used the pronoun "atashi". However, while I'm eager to discuss any possible proof, I think I have had my fill of tasteless discussions, and I'm not sure I want to start one that will probably remain unfinished for quite some time. I simply think I have seen all the arguments on both sides, and don't feel like precisely suggesting what to do. Ok, I understand your point on the databook (I thought I read 2006 in a message so I went with it, sorry), only the info on Alluka was not on it, if I'm not mistaken, but let's forget about this, it's not useful now. What bothers me is that a trivial matter like this one (Alluka not being a real person) is really making us look bad, and we already have such a small number of contributors... Also, I can't apologize enough, when all this started, my knowledge on transgenderism was embarrassing, but I did not notice until reality slapped me in the face, and I'm sorry to have voiced opinion that must have sounded offensive, although I guarantee there was no malice behind them. not saying you are a transgender, I just wanted to be clear Also, another thing that kept bugging me for a long time. I never explained to you properly why I thought that Neferpitou was male in the manga and female in the anime. It's not a provocation, I just want to convey my opinion as accurately as possible. Seeing Togashi's love for ambiguous and gender/sex non-conformist characters, I assumed that Neferpitou would be male, in spite of his looks, or even that his gender had not been decided due to a precise choice on the author's part; however, since a male character with feminine looks or a genderless character may be considered too much for a Shounen anime, the people in charge of the adaptation modified it. Again, it's just for clarity, I have no intention of sparking a new debate, also considering I read all of your considerations on the topic. Please forgive this wall of text. Martialmaniac (talk) 22:51, August 20, 2015 (UTC) Request for consultation I've left messages on both Darkchylde and MrGenial11's talk pages recently regarding the actions of OnePieceNation in the thread about Alluka's gender. I know it may not be appropriate, but I'd like to ask if you would please look my complaint over and possibly offer your opinion? Olivemeister (talk) 19:59, September 30, 2016 (UTC) Thank you very much for your support and input! Olivemeister (talk) 23:13, September 30, 2016 (UTC) Nanika's pronouns Hi, sorry to bother you. You seem to be able to access the Japanese raws, could I ask you if Killua or Alluka ever refer to Nanika using gendered pronouns? Martialmaniac (talk) 10:26, April 16, 2018 (UTC) Thanks! Martialmaniac (talk) 11:06, April 16, 2018 (UTC)